Off Topic advice needed.

"Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer" (dash-doorhandle-and-bondo)
11/07/2019 at 14:30 • Filed to: None

How do I delicately explain this guy to my very innocent MJ loving 9 year old. We’ve discussed that he died from drugs and that he was generally a weird dude, but I have not explained the BIG problem with M ike.

DISCUSSION (65)

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 14:45

This sucks. Maybe (probably) too young. Wait a few years?

Glad I never watched The Cosby Show with my kids like I’d planned to do.

Thanks for ruining my childhood, assholes...

DipodomysDeserti > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 14:45

I wouldn’t delicately explain it. Kids need to have a good understanding of what predators do to kids so as to avoid having it happen to them. They also need to be able to recognize if it ever happens to them.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 14:49

I feel like 9 is a good time to start cautioning on how fucked up the world is .

Kids need to have at least a high level understanding that there are certain behaviors that are not acceptable in adults and what to do if something happens to them.

Then say, “at the end of the day, nothing matters because we’ll all be underwater in 50 years”.

That’ll help settle their mind!

Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer > DipodomysDeserti
11/07/2019 at 14:51

I don’t want him to not know, I’m gonna have to sit him down.

PyramidHat > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 14:52

I’d explain that sometimes bad people create good things. That the things they create are good doesn’t make the person any better and that the person does bad things doesn’t make their creations any worse.

Cash Rewards > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 14:55

Im assuming you’ve had a “these are your private parts, they are yours, and no one can touch you without your permission, and if they do you say no and tell me ” sort of talk? Then just remind kid of that, and say he touched people without their permission? That's the best I got.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > DipodomysDeserti
11/07/2019 at 14:56

100% agreed. That said, keep in mind that he was acquitted. I f the kid repeats any of this to their friends other parents might have fed their kids a different position and it could become a point of contention. Especially these days when things are so easily misconstrued, if you get my drift.

slipperysallylikespenguins > PyramidHat
11/07/2019 at 14:56

It’s amazing how many adults don’t understand that concept.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > PyramidHat
11/07/2019 at 14:57

I like this take.

ttyymmnn > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 14:58

You could say that he befriended some children and touched them in ways that adults should never touch children. What he did was not only wrong but also illegal.

You might also mention that he did that because he had a horrible home life, his father physically abused him, and he was never allowed to have a normal childhood. I’m no psychiatrist, but I would wager that those factors had a lot to do with his behavior as an adult.

It’s a shame, because his music is really damned good.

Cash Rewards > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 14:58

Wife says "he hurt people and lied about it". That's simple and effective

DipodomysDeserti > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja:
11/07/2019 at 14:59

Not really a concern of mine when teach ing my kids how to avoid predators.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 15:00

Just tell him as it is. Tell him that MJ had health problems that included anxiety and trouble sleeping and that he died from an accidental overdose of medication meant to help him sleep:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson#Death

And of course this happened just before starting a big tour, which must have given him stress and anxiety, which led to him having more trouble sleeping and thus, taking more of the medication than he should have.

As for his OTHER problems, well no need to really go into detail... after all, the guy IS dead. It’s not like he can hang out with kids anymore like he did.

Just say he didn’t have the happiest childhood and that affected him, causing him to do some weird things as an adult.

Consider as well that when he’s older, he can read up on MJ himself from various places like Wikipedia.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 15:01

my girls are 7 and we’ve already had a general talk that adults shouldn’ t be touching them. a hug is fine from their grandparent / aunt / teacher if they are ok with it (i guess the teacher greats the kids each morning and you can c hose high 5, hug etc ) but in general thats about as far as it should go. if you dont want to get into details you can just say he did mean things to kids and that that is very not ok.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > slipperysallylikespenguins
11/07/2019 at 15:04

I know,

I mean, I have like, 1 print of a painting by Hitler in my office and now its like a big “HR thing”.

Its just a church and some houses lady!

Kinja'd!!!

(/s obviously, I don’t have any Hitler paintings).

slipperysallylikespenguins > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
11/07/2019 at 15:08

I would love to have an original Hitler painting, then I could sell it and buy cars.

Ash78, voting early and often > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 15:09

We’re big MJ fans here, especially earlier stuff (Jackson 5). We’ve talked about how he went a little bit crazy later in life because he never had a normal life, his family was messed up, he owned a theme park in his front yard, etc. But I don’t feel any need to bring up the abuse thing with my 9 or 6 year old. They’ll find out eventually, but for now it’s about the music and that’s all.

We have talked about abusers at great length (how to spot them, how to fight back and yell for help, when it’s ok to be naked or not, etc) , just not about Jackson. So we’re not boycotting his music or anything like that. I

ttyymmnn > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 15:11

Another thought: If you decide to go all in and explain to her what he did, you could also use it as an opportunity to discuss grooming. How sick adults who want to be with children will talk to them, buy them gifts, flatter them, try to be friends with them in order to build trust and prep them for exploitation . It would help her to recognize if an adult, even an adult family member, was doing something like that to her (hi m?) and that it is wrong and that she should tell you immediately.

RallyWrench > PyramidHat
11/07/2019 at 15:13

This is something that a lot of people would do well to remember. Human history is littered with horrible people doing great things.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
11/07/2019 at 15:13

Always makes me wonder how different the world might be if his art prof hadn’t been so critical...

Even though this is kinda boring, Dolf, I’m gonna stroke your ego and pass you because I’m afraid you might try to eliminate an entire segment of the population if I don’t.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often
11/07/2019 at 15:15

Do you think they’ll hold it against you when they’re older for not telling them?

ClassicDatsunDebate > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 15:16

9? I’d leave it. Let him/her explore the music they want to. If a few MJ’s are in the mix, whatever. They’ll hear about it or learn about it down the road. Unless they become a super-fan, I wouldn’t worry about it.

When I was 9 I was extremely exploring music. B oth parents had weekend bands and I had my first guitar already. I listened to everything i could. My parents didn’t explain Schutzstaffel when they saw the KISS album covers or that Johnny Cash was a trainwreck of a human at the time. They didn’t fret about lyrics and neither did I because most stuff flies way over a 9yo’s head. At that time, music was presented objectively to me, as i found it on the radio or thumbing through the family’s albums. Perhaps Two Virgins was placed on the unreachable upper shelf but I can’t remember

I’m not dismissing the problem. My thought is that you don’ t want to stifle music exploration especially at that age. Also you have a ton of influence on what they listen to as well, so if you are very uncomfortable with their music taste, you could always gently guide them toward other stuff.

just-a-scratch > slipperysallylikespenguins
11/07/2019 at 15:19

What would be even better is if someone were to auction the opportunity to burn a Hitler painting. It’s all the money (maybe more) without the ickyness of, you know, putting that thing back out in the world.

It’s not the art itself that’s especially icky. It’s the idolatry of the man that tends to go with them, in certain circles.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PyramidHat
11/07/2019 at 15:21

But what should we do with their creations? It’s one thing if they’re dead, and paying for their art/content/whatever will no longer enrich them, but if they’re still alive, is doing anything that enriches them a tacit approval of their behavior?

See: Woody Allen, R Kelly, too many more to name...

just-a-scratch > PyramidHat
11/07/2019 at 15:21

One can love the art without loving the artist.

Now that MJ is deceased, I think it removes a lot of concern over one’s support of good works going to people who’ve done bad things.

Ash78, voting early and often > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 15:23

I doubt it - not any more than any other celebrity’s bad choices.

The whole conversation would be different if they actually knew MJ personally, or if h e were tangentially involved in their lives directly.

I mean , I’m still learning secrets my family has kept for decades. Not abuse stuff, but like alcoholism, cheating, miscarriages, etc. I didn’t need to know that as a kid. I probably don’t need to know now...

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > just-a-scratch
11/07/2019 at 15:24

It belongs in a museum, next to a photo of a pile of gassed Jews...

The worst thing we can do in response to Hitler and people like him is try to whitewash them from history.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often
11/07/2019 at 15:26

Yeah, I err on the side of sheltering them, too (probably too much...) . Mine are almost 13, 11 (today), and almost 7. I just don’t want them to grow up and learn how shitty the world is any earlier than they have to.

PyramidHat > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 15:30

Ugh...question for the ages, I reckon. Maybe buy used works so the artist doesn’t benefit? No good answer. I have a Bill Cosby DVD (“Himself”) that i bought years ago... I haven’t watched it recently, but haven’t tossed it, either . It’s still hard to recognize that such a comic mind could do such bad things.

CalzoneGolem > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 15:33

I’m not an art prof but I’ve certainly seen a lot worse.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > DipodomysDeserti
11/07/2019 at 15:33

I don’t disagree, but others might, and we’re living in Cancel Country now.

Mid Engine > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 15:34

I enrolled my kids in karate at age 7, they can look after themselves if need be. Empower your child

Galileo Humpkins (aka MC Clap Yo Handz) > PyramidHat
11/07/2019 at 15:38

This. This is a perfect way to introduce the conversation, and these are points that should be reiterated during.

just-a-scratch > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 15:42

Fair enough.

I just don’t think we need the paintings floating around. We are quite capable of remembering history without them. Pictures of what happened in the camps, yeah, that needs to stay in museums. Paintings by people who inspire horrific things, those can be removed from existence.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > PyramidHat
11/07/2019 at 15:48

This is a good take.

One of my favorites is people using NFL players as role models. Most of them are angry aggressive assholes. Because they need to be to be good at their jobs. And you can be a fan of the dude who got 10 sacks this season but looking up to his capabilities is very different from looking up to the person himself.

Manny05x > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 15:55

Never convicted, his music was great leave it at that. I am not defending him in any way but i bet most of the celebs we look up to have some weird shit to them, take the art and keep it moving.

Ash78, voting early and often > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 16:00

Don’t get me wrong, we shelter them (my son’s 3rd grade computer has a coding program with at least 6 pop songs with terribly sexual/suicide/drug lyrics and I had a phone call with the principal this morning).

To be fair to the MJ thing, I think about a decade had to pass between the original abuse scandal and my willingness to talk to the kids about it without the elephant in the room.

I remember being in middle school and making horrible jokes about MJ like it was nothing (“When do you know it’s bedtime at Neverland? When the big hand is on the little hand!”)

If my kids did that, we’d had a serious talk. But that’s just one of the ways I’m trying to be better than my folks. They let me get away with anything.

They were OK Boomers :D

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
11/07/2019 at 16:08

“I’m not a nazi because the ONLY painting I have on my wall just HAPPENS to have been painted by Hitler!”

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often
11/07/2019 at 16:09

Haha - nice. The Boomer generation completely missed my family. My parents are old (“silent gen”), and my oldest brother’s the oldest Xer.

As sheltered as my kids are, I was even more sheltered. One of my friends will often say, “oh, that didn’t have [super common pop culture reference from my childhood ] in The Shelter, did they?”.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 16:10

I thought it was that he applied to an art school and didn’t get accepted? Maybe I’m wrong.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Snuze: Needs another Swede
11/07/2019 at 16:13

You’re right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings_by_Adolf_Hitler

Ash78, voting early and often > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 16:16

My folks are old Boomers, but fit the generation to a T (including pithy stuff like “Thanks for paying for my healthcare!” and generally lounging around the house doing very little; I can’t be nasty, they were savvy investors and also put me through school back when it was affordable. But definitely money hoarders and stingy about it. )

I’m a young X, my brother is an old Millenial. Only 3 years between us, but such a world of difference. Not that the generational split matters, just that he spent his last few high school years as a spoiled only child, underachiever, and heavy metal musician. Finally got his bachelor’s degree at age 31. I think we both rep our groups pretty well, whether intentional or not.

DipodomysDeserti > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
11/07/2019 at 16:17

Kinja'd!!!

DipodomysDeserti > just-a-scratch
11/07/2019 at 16:17

Not that anyone really seemed that concerned about it when he was alive.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 16:18

Thanks for bringing this up, great conversation. I was a HUGE MJ fan as a kid…so it’s pretty tough coming to terms with it all as an adult. Obviously now I see that a lot of his behavior was just super weird and creepy, but it doesn’t stop his music from having been amazing and a positive and instrumental part of my childhood.

My wife has had no exposure to MJ, didn’t listen to him growing up, and just sees him as a perv…which TBH, isn’t inaccurate. So now having a kid (very young, so not at your point yet) it’s pretty tough deciding whether to introduce her to his music at all.

I think the balance in this comment thread is the right approach – there is some seriously good music, especially from his earlier years that is excellent. But it also provides a great teaching example of people being capable of both extreme good and extreme evil, and it’s important to watch out for it without being blinded by the good.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 16:21

I remember years ago Cracked used to do reader photoshop challenges (maybe they still do? I haven’t been there in ages) . O ne of them was something like “lost mail that could have changed history”, and one of the top entries (maybe the winner?) was basically an art school acceptance letter to Hitler, returned to sender for not enough postage.

HammerheadFistpunch > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
11/07/2019 at 16:25

yeah so that last part? my girls were literally terrified for a week that they were going to be drown in global warming...like that week after I explained pre-ice age earth and global warming . It didn’t go well.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often
11/07/2019 at 16:29

Interesting.

There are 19 years between my oldest and youngest brother (6 of us), currently 54 and 35 (holy crap... my little brother is 35!). There are 9 years between my and my next oldest brother, hard to say if I’m more like him or my little brother, in a generational sense , kind of a mix. They both had a much different childhood/teenage years than me.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Snuze: Needs another Swede
11/07/2019 at 16:31

Yup. Terribly sad to think about how such a seemingly inconsequential decision ended up shaping the world that we now know it.

You’re too good for architecture, Adolf?!

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ZHP Sparky, the 5th
11/07/2019 at 16:37

Sjw culture gone mad

Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer > Mid Engine
11/07/2019 at 16:37

At age nine, he’s been in Kempo longer than he hasn’t.

My bird IS the word > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
11/07/2019 at 16:38

That would be hilarious. “ nice painting!” Yeah, its an original H itler.

Ash78, voting early and often > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 16:42

Wife is the middle of 3, but there’s 17 years from top to bottom. Basically “three only children”

The dynamic today is horrible. Oldest is like a quasi-mother to the youngest. Wife is miserably stuck between two people who got all her parents’ attention. It’s strained to say the least. It doesn’t help that her sisters are generally self-centered. Or that one sister has a daughter ready to graduate from college, while the other just got married last month.

TMI, I know, but it always helps to have more kids in between to help bridge the gap a little bit. Long periods of no kids can really mess stuff up.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 17:01

But that’s the timeline we live on, and hindsight is 20/20.

Consider, though, that all previous events being the same, Germany was a powder keg at that time and someone would have inevitably lit the fuse. Imagine a scenario in which Hitler goes off to art school and someone actually competent bubbles to the top. They turn Germany’s rage outward or towards some other, more marginalized group, and the Jewish scientists don’t flee Germany. I nstead of rejecting “J ew science” and trying to reinvent the wheel, fixating on the occult, and trying to develop wonder weapons they just focus on real scientific progress , this new leader doesn’t micromanage and second guess the Generals, and instead they concentrate on systematically hammering western Europe. They don’t commit to Barbarosa, at least not until they’ve conquered western Europe, and don’t send the Zimmerman telegram drawing the US directly into the war on both fronts ? Europe pulls it’s colonial troops back, America and Australia get tied up fighting Japan, the Germans conquer western Europe, all the while having a leg up on everyone and develop the atomic bomb first. There’s a good chance Europe and north Africa would be speaking German right now, Russia would be a series of craters, and the Americas would be on their own in an uneasy stalemate. Or something like that. Who knows?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Snuze: Needs another Swede
11/07/2019 at 17:16

Yeah... Very good point.

Grindintosecond > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 17:16

can i tell a MJ joke here? OR is thsi a bad time....

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often
11/07/2019 at 17:19

Wow, that’s wild. I’m a middle, but also an oldest.

That’s too bad that they’re not close, but if they didn’t really grow up together, you can see how it happens. I didn’t really get to know my older brothers until I was in high school/college.

Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer > Grindintosecond
11/07/2019 at 17:21

is it the hot dog joke?

ranwhenparked > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 18:55

Do you need to go into all that right now? I mean that would be the easy way out.

Otherwise, maybe just sit him down and come straight out with it. Emphasize that you can draw a distinction between the art and the artist behind it, liking his music doesn’t excuse what he may have done, and vice versa - recognizing what he might have done doesn’t mean you have to pretend to not like his music.

But, explain what the allegations are and what the evidence is, and just kind of lay it out there.

ranwhenparked > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
11/07/2019 at 19:34

Well, I don’t think Germans are going to stop driving on the Autobahn, if that’s the sort of thing you’re getting at.

ranwhenparked > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja:
11/07/2019 at 19:38

You can maybe get around that by explaining that just about everything Michael Jackson did was completely textbook grooming behavior for pedophiles, so, even if you want to accept that he was innocent, his behavior is still a good example of what to teach your children to watch out for.

Grindintosecond > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 22:25

no, its how to tell its bedtime.

ranwhenparked > Grindintosecond
11/07/2019 at 23:13

I thought it was going to be the K-Mart one

Grindintosecond > ranwhenparked
11/07/2019 at 23:38

Ahhh, yeah not that one.

You know it’s bedtime when the big hand touches the little hand.

*drum riff where the sticks fall on the ground*

Grindintosecond > Dash-doorhandle-6 cyl none the richer
11/07/2019 at 23:50

Honestly, the most creative and genius people ever in history had widely varying norms on other levels. Most hyper intelligent people I’ve known were medicated or in therapy or other ‘foibles’ that on their level, were okay as regular social limits were archaic to them. I believe in balance and maintaining brilliance with becoming Howard Hughes is seriously stressful work on its own just to remain ‘noemal’. But that still doesn’t make NAMBLA okay.